Updated to note:
People often land on this post after Googling for "Reasons to have kids." Most people don't read any of the back story, though, so here it is.
My original post on this subject is found here and offers more detail on the book No Kid: 40 Reasons Not to Have Children. My observation was that the writer clearly had children for the wrong reasons, and then projected those feelings and her own failings onto the world.
By way of contrast, the list below was written in the spirit of someone who loves and enjoys her children, in spite of all the challenges of parenting. I was countering an unhappy, mean-spirited book. (An article about the book, and the original list of "40 Reasons for Not Having Children" is here.)
Let's be clear. The author of No Kid is not childless. This isn't a case of someone saying, "I've chosen not to reproduce for the following reasons." She has two kids. They'll one day read her words, if they haven't already, and though I'm sure she meant to be clever and funny, I feel pity for her children, the targets of her cleverness.
I mentioned in a comment below that kids have a way of "not getting it" regarding their parents' humor, especially when it's about wishing them out of existence.
So, perhaps this post sprang from a maternal instinct to protect children in general, even hers.
Ironically, there was at time when I didn't think I even had a maternal instinct.
By age 19, I was firmly convinced I would never want children. Ever. No room for argument. I even inquired about sterilization, but the doctor wouldn't consider it, given my age. I was outraged at the doctor for making such a decision for me.
And I was 30 years old before my views on children changed, so I've certainly been on both sides of this issue.
Anyway.
Please keep all of the above in mind when you read this list, which is a direct counter to 40 silly, petty reasons not to have children. I offer, instead, an accounting of the silly, ironic, giddy, completely unpredictable and unbelievable joys of parenthood.
At one time in my life, I wouldn't have believed them either.
**********
original post:
So, yesterday I mentioned this woman. She wrote a book detailing her "40 Reasons Not to Have Kids."
Today, I present:
40 Reasons to Have Kids
(based on her reasons not to ....)
1. Desiring children with the man you love is as natural as breathing.
2. The experience of delivering a new life to the world is singularly exhilarating. If you fear pain, there's this lovely thing called an epidural.
3. Breastfeeding: it's not only economical, efficient, and good for the baby, but it releases hormones that relax and calm both mother and child, lulling both of you to sleep. Who wouldn't want a natural nap-inducer?
4. The world doesn't revolve around me and my daily desires.
5. Every human being has dignity and worth.
6. A child is an unbreakable bond between husband and wife. Love breeds love. And more love. And more. There's nothing more desirable than the father of your children.
7. A couple becomes a family -- the whole becomes greater than its parts.
8. Having a child is a cooperation with the sacred.
9. Children are some of the most charming little people I know: full of wonder, curiosity and innate kindness. Properly nurtured, they become equally charming adults.
10. You get to read all the favorite books of your childhood all over again.
11. Children naturally grasp the lesson that people are more important than things.
12. Children teach us the freedom that comes with self-discipline and self-sacrifice.
13. The biggest drudgery is facing no one but myself day after day.
14. I am not ideal ... why should I expect my children to be? Kids teach us the joy of unconditional love and acceptance.
15. I will inevitably disappoint my children because I am not perfect. But, along the way, I'll be able to teach them that -- while nothing on this side of heaven is perfect -- the journey and the perfection that awaits us are worth every moment of trial on earth.
16. To remain or become a self-centered, self-enclosed egotist: what horror!
17. Taking time to care for the gifts I've been given ... yes, thank you.
18. Motherhood is a vocation: fulfilling, rewarding, and full of unpredictable surprises.
19. Families: they are a reflection of the Trinity.
20. Relive childhood and all of its innocent wonder and mirth.
21. To persist in saying "me first" is a sign of immaturity.
22. A child will ignite the fond memories of your own childhood.
23. While you cannot ensure that your child will be happy 100% of the time, the desire for her happiness is a good, admirable and unselfish thing.
24. The enchantment of being with one's children outweighs any and all other difficulties.
25. If you worry about sending them off to school, homeschooling is a delightful, intellectually stimulating option.
26. Do something to change the world. Have a child. Raise a saint.
27. Revel in the simplicity of a child's unconditional love and trust.
28. Parenting will soften your hard edges and sharpen your compassion and empathy.
29. Motherhood is an insight into one's soul. It's better than analysis.
30. Success is not defined only in terms of what one does for money. To succeed as a mother is beyond worldly success.
31. When your husband becomes the father of your children, a new man appears: fiercely loving but practical and still-logical, nurturing but fiercely strong and protective. You will fall in love with him all over again.
32. The child to whom you give life may be the one to fight the culture of death and the notion of a brave new world.
33. "How can there be too many children? That is like saying there are too many flowers." -- Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
34. Children whittle away your time in ways that are ultimately beneficial: they have an uncanny knack for getting rid of the meaningless hobbies that used to consume you.
35. Watching a child grow into a caring, sensitive soul is a reward that cannot be measured in book sales.
36. It's an awe-inspiring thing to have a child and the experience of feeling, "I didn't think I could ever love anyone that much."
37. Already have a child? Have another. Siblings are the best birthday presents, Christmas presents, Father's Day presents, Arbor Day presents ....
38. Baby toes. Need I say more?
39. Okay, I'll say more. Watching your baby sleep: You didn't know that angels could be held in your arms.
40. Worried about money? What's worth more than a soul?
Monday, October 08, 2007
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108 comments:
Great post. Agreed!
well put!
Children can grow up to be such interesting adults. It's so great to raise people who can be your friends as you head into fifties and sixties. My own kids are some of the most interesting adults I know and as a bonus they bring home other interesting adults.
I love this post, Karen.
God bless you. This post is terrific.
Wonderfully said!! Thank-You.
This is beautiful :-)
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful Karen! You are so eloquent!
Beautifully stated.
Hear, hear!! Well said :)
I think this list should get to this woman ... somehow ;)
Wonderfully spoken!
Well, done, Karen! I am so glad there are people in the world like you to balance out the people in the world like her.
To which I would add...your body never looked so beautiful as when it housed another human being...
Though I did fail to say (sorry - I clicked publish too soon!) - WELL SAID! HEAR HEAR! :)
Terrific post, Karen.
Karen,
Very, very beautiful. Thank you!
God bless,
Donna
Well, I'm sorry but I just have to disagree.
I think there are at least 100 reasons to have kids. ;)
PS. Ditto what Elaine said.
A wonderful list, Karen. Yours resonates with life and hope; the other list with dull misery. The contrast couldn't be greater.
Fantastic list, Karen! You are great!
Thank you, Karen, for taking the time to put in your ever-so-eloquent words exactly what many of us have experienced and believe with all of our hearts. I hearby appoint you our Spokeswoman for True Motherhood.
We really should FedEx a copy of this list to that sad woman. Not that it would mean much to her, but she should be reminded of all that she is missing. I too will pray for her and her poor kids.
Hear, hear! Beautiful and oh so true!
Well done!
Thank you, Karen. After I read that article, I felt sick to my stomach. This restores some balance.
Perfect!
Thank You! I needed to hear that. Its been a hard week.
Absolutely perfect, Karen!!!
This list is beautiful and a wonderful rebuttal to that awful child-hating woman. Good job.
I love my kiddos. They bring me joy.
I wish the woman who wrote that OTHER list could feel joy, too. How sad for her that she obviously doesn't.
Perfect, Karen! and beautiful! Beautifully perfect and perfectly beautiful! Thank you.
You should write a book.
:-)
Yipee!! I love children and all the reasons to have em!!
Love your 40 reasons!!!! You put into words reasons I have felt all three times I delivered another of God's masterpieces!
Ebeth
Amen!
Wonderful, I agree wholeheartedly. I love that I am part of God's eternal plan, and love to see His plan unfold each day as my sons grow!
Karen, you are amazing. It is a wonderful response to a dreadful book.
beautiful-
What a beautiful list! I LOVE IT!! Thank you for the antidote. After reading the "other list" I was truly saddened that anyone would feel so strongly against kids to actually write a book about it.
Your list was like a soothing balm to my heart.
I wish I had your gift for words--and the guts to use them!!!
There's really nothing to add, except thank you.
Warmly,
Eileen
Thank you all, so much, for your terrific comments and support!
Just a few days ago, I was feeling so comment-deprived that I almost wrote a post begging for delurking and comments, but that seemed too pitiful. Now I see the truth: I just have to write something worth commenting on. :-)
Thanks again for taking the time to share in the fun and joy of this post. All of you kid-loving people are treasures and are the source of hope and inspiration for our tired world.
Thank you so much for this post. Beautiful! Also, we should keep that author's children in our prayers. Surely they're aware of her feelings. I just can't imagine knowing that one of your parents -- *especially* your mother -- feels that way.
Now that my children have "blocked my professional path" and "trapped" me into my "domestic prison," I will just have to go curl up and cuddle with them and continue to watch as my parenting makes me "soft!" Not soft enough yet - need a few more kids to finish the job!
Janet
Just can't resist adding my appreciative response to all the others, Karen.
There is no denying that being a parent is the most difficult job (if done correctly and well), but my husband and I say all the time, "What would we have done without our three gifts?" Do they test me? Do they disappoint me? Yes and YES! But, oh how my love for them causes tears to sting my eyes so often, mine are given to saying quite frequently, "There goes Mom - crying AGAIN!"
Thank you for this post!
It really strikes me how sad and bitter she sounds behind her list, and how truly joyful you sound behind yours. How about a quick Ave for all women who have been misled?
That was absolutely beautiful!
Got my 40 bounced up. . .
http://playthedad.blogspot.com/2007/10/40-reasons-to-have-child.html
I am so glad you are still taking comments on this, yes, you should write a book...I'm sure you are by the smile face, right? Great post, thank you!!
This was a lovely read! Thanks for making my night!
Hmm, I wonder if it ever occurred to this French woman that her children are unpleasant to be with because she is so loathsome herself? Just a thought.
I had read a list years ago on some forum that gave 75 reasons not to have kids - so I came up with 75 reasons to have kids. They're mostly lighthearted, but fun:
75 Reasons to Have a Child
I wrote up a list, too, and am asking for others who did the same to submit them so they can be cross-linked in one big post.
My list is here, and if you leave a link to new lists (Karen's is linked already), I'll add yours to the growing list at the bottom of the post.
Karen, thanks for starting something great!
Hey, I figured the list could use a little testosterone. So I added mine.
Great post. It occurred to me that the average pregnancy lasts 40 weeks (I'm beginning week 28)....so this works as a list for 1 reason per week ;)
This is so beautiful! Thank you for posting this. I hadn't heard of the other woman, but what a sad way to spend time. Does she not remember that at one time, she, too, was a child?
If you don't mind, I would also like to link to this on my blog. It's just too good to not share.
Of course I don't mind, Sharon! Thanks for stopping by, and please feel free to link!
Beautiful! Thank you for sharing that.
My favourite little line on kids is from the movie "Lost in translation". One character calls his kids, "the most interesting people I've ever met".
As a dad to two little boys, I think My two boys certainly qualify as the most "interesting people I'll ever meet". I just love them to bits, but also, they're the most interesting people, and watching them grow from infancy up into sweet little boys, and now onwards into adolescence, is the most beautiful experience of my life.
Thanks for sharing!
W
"My favourite little line on kids is from the movie 'Lost in translation'. One character calls his kids, 'the most interesting people I've ever met'
***********************
Oh, yes! Atticus and I loved that line. And Bill Murray delivered it so perfectly, conveying both his surprise and utter delight at what his children meant to him.
..and I could find a counter argument for every one of the reasons :)
Having children brought out in me talents, that I did not suspect that I had.
I must say these forty reason to have children are the most self-serving, self-centered, ego centric load of dribble I have the displeasure of reading. You have cemented my reasons for never having children and why I hate god.
You know, Anonymous, I could find counter arguments, too ... but I find the beauty outweighs the beast. :-)
Nick, I'm so sorry to hear you feel that way. Funny thing is, I once felt exactly the way you do.
6. "A child is an unbreakable bond between husband and wife. Love breeds love. And more love. And more. There's nothing more desirable than the father of your children."
So the love is still there, even though 60% of all marriages end in divorce. Of those 83% have children. Plus 78% percent of divorces are due to infidelity.
I am a father of two young children. If I look at my current life and the life before I had children it makes me sad to realize how much I lost. Children do give some pleasure and rewards, but overall I find the balance negative. Sorry ladies, why put more people on this overcrowded earth. I feel the hardship of raising children is the world's best kept secret !
Anonymous said:
"So the love is still there, even though 60% of all marriages end in divorce. Of those 83% have children. Plus 78% percent of divorces are due to infidelity."
Anon,
Actually, yes, I think often the love is still there, but the forest is lost for the trees. The challenges of young children (the loss of romance and glamour?) might drive some to seek happiness outside the marriage. But I don't believe marriages simply end. Love is a choice. And the unbreakable bond -- the child -- certainly still exists. It's sad that so many people leave their marriages at such a critical time (when the children are young.) It's probably the hardest time in a marriage, and too many don't stick around to fight their way through that toughest time.
Dear Father of two young children,
When the children are young is *certainly* the hardest time, in so many ways. Your comment makes me so very sad. As I said above, I think so many marriages fall apart when the children are young precisely because it *is* hard. I'd never deny that it's hard. But it's a hardship that's ultimately worth it. My kids are now 14, 11 and 5, and it's not the same as it was when they were younger. There is such beauty in raising these amazing people.
Atticus and I have fought our way through some very rocky times in our marriage. That's been worth it, too. I hope you'll hang in there and one day will breathe the sigh of relief that you stayed, and will swell with love and satisfaction at the two amazing people you raised.
As for an overcrowded planet, most countries are not even reproducing at a replacement rate, and so the population will eventually decline if we continue at the current pace.
"As for an overcrowded planet, most countries are not even reproducing at a replacement rate, and so the population will eventually decline if we continue at the current pace."
This statement is ridiculous! Our population is not in any danger of declining! Unbelievable-the ignorance here...
I think that no matter what you choose to do, whether it be to have children or to not have them, it is your prerogative. Some people have children to fill a void in their life, some people don't feel a void in their life. I say, do what makes you happy. Not having children is NOT selfish, it's simply a choice. Why follow the herd?
Thanks for commenting, Anonymous. You said, "Our population is not in any danger of declining!"
Read a bit more widely to see what it might mean for our planet if so many nations continue to reproduce below replacement rates. This article from The Atlantic, for example.
I suppose some people do have children to fill a "void" but I don't think that's usually the reason. The most common reason seems to be love. :-)
Regarding selfishness, I don't want to accuse people who choose not to have children of consciously making a selfish choice. At one time in my life I did not want kids at all, and I did not think of it as a selfish choice. In comparing my life before and after children, though, I do have to say that raising kids requires a level of self-sacrifice that has been educational and beneficial in every way to me. I could not have predicted that.
Having kids is fine. The world is not in danger of not having enough people. Perhaps a more responsible post would be reasons to not have children, such as poverty, economics, lack of education, lack of maturity, selfishness, and the overall divorce rate in general.
The facts are that real life isn't some idealistic utopia where "breast feeding" should EVER be a reason to have a child. It's cold, and it's hard out there. A child will only make it moreso in all but the very best of cases.
I find this "list" to be irresponsible and overly idealistic, which in turn is potentially quite harmful.
I love kids. I just don't want any of my own. Most of the things you posted are still things you can enjoy with the children in your life. The other points you bring up are that they save you from selfishness, help you make the world a better place and bring you closer to the man you love. To that I must ask...how much more can you help the world than by being a teacher, a police officer, a firefighter, a doctor, a nurse, or an engineer? If I dedicate myself to a cause that helps a number of people, how am I being selfish? As for being close to the man I love, we are united in the fight to make the world a better place. We have seen some of the evils of the world and nothing makes you closer than coming home together at the end of the day and being grateful for having another who can understand. And may I add...what about those people who desire children but cannot have them? Does the stigma of selfish and unfulfilled apply to them too, or is it only to those people who choose not to have children?
Dear July 13 Anonymous,
I always hope it's clear that the list was written in the lighthearted, joyful spirit of countering a generally mean-spirited book. Obviously, the reasons for having children go beyond breastfeeding. :-) That one, by the way, was a direct counter to "40 Reasons Not to" list. The author had said breastfeeding was a reason *not* to have children.
The reasons you named for not having children are interesting, and at one time such things were exactly why I didn't want children myself. (My husband and I married with the agreement that we did not want kids.) But I'd take your reasons a step further back. I'd say those are all things to consider before getting married. And, for a great discussion that ties into all of this, see Jennifer Fulwiler's A Sexual Revolution which perfectly describes the metamorphosis I experienced years ago in reevaluating sex and reproduction.
Thanks for stopping by!
Dear July 15 Anonymous,
Thank you, too, for stopping by. You ask some excellent questions! Some of them do sound familiar, very similar to my thinking about 20 years ago.
You said:
"how much more can you help the world than by being a teacher, a police officer, a firefighter, a doctor, a nurse, or an engineer?"
Yes, all of those things are beautiful ways of giving oneself sacrificially to the world.
You said:
"If I dedicate myself to a cause that helps a number of people, how am I being selfish?"
I very much doubt that you are a selfish person, based on what you say here. :-) When I talk about motherhood making one unselfish, it doesn't necessarily follow, logically speaking, that "everyone who is not a mother is selfish." Motherhood has certainly opened me up in ways I couldn't have predicted, but that doesn't mean that everyone who isn't me is a selfish oaf. ;-)
You said:
"As for being close to the man I love ... nothing makes you closer than coming home together at the end of the day and being grateful for having another who can understand."
Yes, that is an incredible feeling. Haivng been on both sides of the kid fence (as mentioned in my response above, we didn't want children for a number of years) I can say that there is something about being a parent that we simply don't understand until we experience it. I truly don't mean for that to sound/feel to you like a smug pat on the head, with a dismissive, "You'll get it someday, dearie." But, having been in both positions, I can honestly say that some of the beauty of parenting simply can't be explained until you've been there. I didn't think I could love my husband any more than I already did, but our children truly do bring a different dimension to the relationship. Similarly, the love one feels for one's child is a new kind of love, also nigh impossible to express until you peer into that newborn face.
You said: "And may I add...what about those people who desire children but cannot have them? Does the stigma of selfish and unfulfilled apply to them too, or is it only to those people who choose not to have children?"
This, too, is an excellent question. First, let me address the "stigma" component. Again, I think it's an error in basic logic to say, "Mothering makes one unselfish, therefore, everyone who is not a mother is selfish." No, not necessarily, and I don't think that's what I said. I also didn't say that motherhood was the *only* fulfilling vocation.
I don't advocate stigmatizing everyone who's not a parent. :-) I hope you might read my article "A Good Catholic Family" (linked on the home page) and see that I try never to judge people based on the number of children they have. With a number of miscarriages in my past, I know that what's in one's heart and what's visible are sometimes two different things.
Someone I love very much was unable to have children, and it's the heartache of her life. I don't judge her. I sympathize and I love her. Her life has been different from mine because she was, through no fault of her own, unable to experience having children.
No ... an impromptu listing of "40 Reasons to Have Kids" done in the spirit of the joy of parenting (and in response to a sad book in which a mother of two children openly tells the world she'd rather not have had them) is not an automatic condemnation of all those who are not parents. :-) I would never want it to be taken that way. It is perhaps, a condemnation of the words of Corinne Maier. She didn't choose not to have children, or experience infertility. She had children, and now wishes she didn't. She means it to be clever and funny, but I feel sorry for her poor kids. Maybe I wrote this post out of a maternal instinct to protect children, even hers. :-)
Thanks very much for stopping by.
Hello, I'm one of the anonymouses.. or, however you say that, that wrote a fairly negative response to your post. I wanted to apologize for not taking the time to read your entire post, namely, the first two sentences. Heh.
I had no idea you based this list on someone elses list and that it was written in the spirit of someone loving their children, rather than whatever that other womans problem is.
With that, I apologize for my words -- as a father myself, and rereading your list in that light, I absolutely agree that baby toes are not to be missed. :)
Hi Karen!
I just found your blog yesterday and really enjoy it.
Your 40 reasons are very inspiring, even though I do not have any children; married late, fertility gone, you know the story.
However, I found a different spin on the French author's 40 Reasons Not to Have Children.
To me, her book appears to be an attempt at satire, albeit very mean-sprirted. Also, perhaps she wanted to help her children understand they are NOT the center of the universe.
Blessings to you and your family.
I look forward to more from you.
Dear Anonymous Father of July 19,
Forgive me for taking so long to respond ... and, thank you for your kindness in stopping back here and offering an apology re. not knowing what the list was based on. I'm touched and it was kind of you to take the time to leave another comment.
Yvonne,
Thanks for your kind words, too! Yes, I agree -- I do think the author meant to be funny and/or satirical, but I still feel for her children. Children have a way of not getting their parents' humor, esp. when it's about them! :-) Thanks so much for stopping by and commenting!
Thanks for the amusement on a long car ride!
I would like to post a differing opinion. I do not want children. No, I don't hate children, nor do I hate those who have them. If I ever had a child by accident I would be a responsible loving father and raise the child as best I can. I understand that your post is a response to Corinne Maier's book "40 Reasons Not To Have Children," and while I feel that she comes across as cynical, (I also definitely don't like her saying this after her already having children) I myself would prefer to be without child.
Here are my reasons:
1) Responsibility. Being completely responsible for a child would be quite an
albatross. I don't want that kind of responsiblity. I don't want to have to make
difficult decisions about how to raise a child (morals, discipline, etc.) and
have to bear responsibility for their well-being. This does not end when they
are adults either as you will still worry about them. I don't want to make a
mistake raising a child. You already have enough responsibility with a job, why would you want
a second job (although, aside from the screaming, diaper changing, tantrums, etc. the fun of playing with them and watching them grow up could be more fun than work) of being a parent that you can't ever quit if it becomes too arduous (well you can if you want to be a moralless jerk)
2) Relationship with wife. A child would hinder my relationship with my wife (if
I ever have one) because my (and her) efforts would be concentrated towards
raising the child. Raising the child would (or at least should be) a joint
effort (a "bonding experience if you will") but our efforts of myself would not
be directed towards our relationship.
We wouldn't get to spend nearly as much time together.
3) Free time. When you have a child you no longer have any free time. If you are
not at work (which takes up enough free time) you will be watching your child.
You can't just decide to go do something because it must always be planned. Some
people might say the desire to have free time and try to enjoy yourself through
your hobbies is selfish, but you know what, there is absolutely nothing wrong
with wanting to enjoy your life as long as it isn't done at the expense of other
people.
4) Money. Children are expensive and monetary issues are one of the biggest
problems within marriages. Unless you are loaded this will be an issue. What
happens if you lose your job, or something else happens? Your child will have to
live through the difficult period just as you will. With all the money you spend
on a child, think of how much of that you could donate to help children that are
already alive that don't have fathers or mothers or who are poverty stricken,
abused, or have a number of other problems.
5) The problems with this world. This world isn't always a fun place. People get sick. People have disabilities. People have depression. People are exceedingly lonely. People have jobs they hate. People can't get jobs. Some people would say that there is more good than bad in the world, and that the negative experiences in life let the positive ones look better by comparison, but having been suffering from an almost complete lack of direction, loneliness, feelings of purposelessness, etc. I disagree. I feel that while we would not know what positive experiences are without negative ones, that we do not need near as many negative ones as there are to help us to realize a positive experience when we have one. A positive attitude can be helpful in some cases ("even though I hate my job there are some people without them") but I don't feel that, after a certain point, there are levels of "badness" in life. Sure, some things are worse than others, but if something bad is happening to you it is still bad regardless of how bad it is. Having a child and seeing them be hurt by the problems with this world would be hard to bear.
6)Your children, even if you raise them with good morals will eventually think for themselves and be their own people. There is a possibility they will dislike (or hate) you, and that they will ignore you as soon as they are old enough to be able. Ever seen a nursing home? Not everyone looks after their parents. I am not saying that is right (in fact, it is despicable) but it does happen.
7) This isn't nearly as big of a reason as the others, but the idea of being "daddy" and reaching down and saying "hey there son" in Mr. Cleaver fashion doesn't seem like something I want to be.
I do have reasons in favor of having children however:
1) Children can be funny, fun to play with, etc.
2) teaching your child morals and seeing them act on them is very rewarding
3) watching them grow up, learn, play, etc. is very rewarding
4) you (or you should) have unconditional love for a child
5) Someone to take care of you when you are older and to keep you from being lonely
To be honest, I do struggle with being a cynical individual, but I try to not complain around others and accept the hand that I have been dealt in bothersome situations. That being said I have tried to evaluate this issue in an objective manner.
Also, I did not add this because it doesn't apply directly to me, but why would any woman ever want to go through 9 months of morning sickness, etc., have a painful birth (well there is an epidural), suffer from post-natal depression, weight gain, and low self-esteem? I do not think it at all selfish to look after your own interests (as long as it is not at the expense of anyone else), especially when they are that of not inflicting yourself with sickness, pain, depression, weight gain, etc.
I agree with you, I am woman, and although having kids might seem like fun at times, I still cant see why would any woman want to go through that. Maybe I don't really understad that and that varies from person to person. but another reason to consider is
1) exesive world population, I am sorry to disagree with mother Teressa, but there ARE too many people in the world, the birth rates are ridiculously high compared to death rates in some countries like mine (Guatemala)
so if you want a kid I suggest you adopt, because there are many children that need a loving and carring individual to take care of them
2) wantingto enjoy life, hobbies, is NOT being selfish. Woman today have more options than being a house wife, why not fight for yor right because many woman faught for YOU to be able to have an option so dont just waist it
I respect your ideas, although it is clear you don´t accept people have other values. Your 40 reasons to have kids were great to me. They are soooo weak that you proved I should not have kids. Thank you!
If having children were so great, as you say, couples would never divorce...Why almost every couple divorces after having children??? Coincidence???
It's unfortunate that the only way you feel you can realize that the world does not revolve around you, or that toexperience the "simplicity of unconditional love" is by reproducing. If you need to create a child in order to turn a couple into a family you have much more to think about than whether or not you should add another child to the world.
I feel as though it is much more egotistical to believe that the child you raise will be a saint. If you need a child in order to "sharpen your compassion and empathy" then I feel saddened by the parenting you received. Hmmmmm..... case and point.
Karen, of course your "Reasons" are right on. I briefly became very angry reading the article about that spiritually impoverished French woman and some of the attacks against you - especially the most recent "anonymous" post and the three before it. There sure is a lot of psychic suffering in this world, not to mention plenty of evil, when the skill of articulating soul-killing selfishness is greeted with admiration or embraced as good. I'm not sweating these particular manifestations, however, as I am sure you are praying for the individuals.
With specific regard to smug "having children breeds divorce" comments, only if the couple doesn't 1) have a pre-existing ironclad commitment to the bond, and 2) put their couple relationship first in moral priority (as opposed to time, which is rarely possible) for the very sake of the children and their need to see and be raised in a situation of a communion of life and love.
I'm not sure how many more "people" or "children" in general the world needs, but I have the moral certitude that it needs a lot more good people. When good people have multiple children, it makes the world an exponentially better place.
Skysaw, thank you for your kind and gracious comment. And thanks for the lovely words about marriage and commitment, and about how they bond a couple through the child-rearing years. Beautiful.
Bill, I hope I don't sound condescending if I say you sound young. :-) At age 19, I was firmly convinced I would never want children, and I even inquired about sterilization (but the doctor wouldn't even consider it, given my age.) Some of your reasons may change over time, and actually, some of your reasons (you sound like you want to be a devoted, loving husband if you ever marry) are the very things that might lead you to be a great dad. :-)
To the other anonymous commenters I haven't yet had time to address: Most of the things you've said I've addressed in other comments/responses. I'll just repeat this:
This list was written in the lighthearted, joyful spirit of countering a generally mean-spirited book, as noted in the opening of the post. An article about the book, and the original list of "40 Reasons for Not Having Children" is here.
The author is not childless. She has two children who will one day read her words, if they haven't already. I'm sure she meant to be clever and funny, but I feel for her poor kids, who are the targets of her cleverness.
I mentioned in a previous comment that children have a way of not "getting" their parents' humor, esp. when it's about them (and maybe, especially, when it's about wishing them out of existence.) I also mentioned in a previous comment that perhaps I wrote this post out of a maternal instinct to protect children, even hers. :-)
And, isn't it the ultimate irony that, at one time, I didn't even think I *had* a maternal instinct? :-)
As always, I appreciate the conversations, and thank everyone for stopping by.
For every "reason" to have kids, I can list five to not have them. Most of the reasons aren't even valid...
1. Desiring children with the man you love is as natural as breathing.
So is taking a humongous dump whenever and wherever, but I don't inflict that on others.
2. The experience of delivering a new life to the world is singularly exhilarating. If you fear pain, there's this lovely thing called an epidural.
Same with tearing the perineum and having to where urine pads. I just love the idea of peeing whenever I laugh or sneeze.
3. Breastfeeding: it's not only economical, efficient, and good for the baby, but it releases hormones that relax and calm both mother and child, lulling both of you to sleep. Who wouldn't want a natural nap-inducer?
Until the newborn starts screaming in agony after you dropped it during your sleep.
4. The world doesn't revolve around me and my daily desires.
Society claims else wise.
5. Every human being has dignity and worth.
Damn, :) I never knew that about Hitler!
6. A child is an unbreakable bond between husband and wife. Love breeds love. And more love. And more. There's nothing more desirable than the father of your children.
Unless the man, or woman, thought bringing the baby into an already broken relationship would fix every single thing.
WHOA!
7. A couple becomes a family -- the whole becomes greater than its parts.
I'm sure childfree, childless, and infertile couples appreciate this sentiment.
8. Having a child is a cooperation with the sacred.
So, angels are always the baby's father? ..................... creepy.
9. Children are some of the most charming little people I know: full of wonder, curiosity and innate kindness. Properly nurtured, they become equally charming adults.
Someone has not read Lord Of The Flies. Hm?
10. You get to read all the favorite books of your childhood all over again.
OH YES, the PERFECT REASON to have children. As if you couldn't volunteer at the Library to do this.
11. Children naturally grasp the lesson that people are more important than things.
Instead of the frothing, selfish, and cruel little beasts they can be. Bullies, remember? Basic human instincts? Social mores still have not sunken in, nor has the brain even near finishing it's, that is development until early adulthood.
12. Children teach us the freedom that comes with self-discipline and self-sacrifice.
Oh yeah, being slave to one for the next 18 years, if you're even remotely lucky. The children will be with you for the rest of your life, whether if you liked them or not.
13. The biggest drudgery is facing no one but myself day after day.
Instead of a spouse you married just for the CHILDREN, or your children that you honestly did not want nor even prepared for.
14. I am not ideal ... why should I expect my children to be? Kids teach us the joy of unconditional love and acceptance.
Why not try learning it for yourself instead of projecting this onto another living being?
15. I will inevitably disappoint my children because I am not perfect. But, along the way, I'll be able to teach them that -- while nothing on this side of heaven is perfect -- the journey and the perfection that awaits us are worth every moment of trial on earth.
Look above.
16. To remain or become a self-centered, self-enclosed egotist: what horror!
YESSSSS, because having children is the MOST SELF-LESS THING ON EARTH! Damn them! Damn those people who don't want children! Damn those who are parents and are STILL LIKE THIS, EVEN AFTER HAVING CHILDREN.
17. Taking time to care for the gifts I've been given ... yes, thank you.
I've always enjoyed being vomited upon and having snot wiped all over my clothing.
Oh.
Can't forget the drool and macaroni sculptures.
18. Motherhood is a vocation: fulfilling, rewarding, and full of unpredictable surprises.
Instead of fulfilling your identity beforehand and not projecting your wants on them.
19. Families: they are a reflection of the Trinity.
.......... what? Are you claiming that every parent is God and Jesus? ................. huh?
20. Relive childhood and all of its innocent wonder and mirth.
THAT LITTLE BASTARD BETTER MAKE IT TO BASEBALL CAPTAIN AND EARN STRAIGHT A'S, BECAUSE I AM STILL INSECURE AND IMMATURE TO WORK ON MY PERSONAL SHORTCOMINGS!
21. To persist in saying "me first" is a sign of immaturity.
And somehow children aren't immature? Wow, mind blow.
22. A child will ignite the fond memories of your own childhood.
Getting the shit beaten outta you by bullies, physically and emotionally abused, and can't forget that neglect!
Wow, how could any one forget fond memories as those!?
23. While you cannot ensure that your child will be happy 100% of the time, the desire for her happiness is a good, admirable and unselfish thing.
How about wanting this for others?
24. The enchantment of being with one's children outweighs any and all other difficulties.
Children can pay bills? Debt? Solve the economy crisis? World hunger? Cancer?
WHOA! CALL PANACEA!
25. If you worry about sending them off to school, homeschooling is a delightful, intellectually stimulating option.
This can be true, BUT if it is done properly. I'm sure being blinded and brainwashed by fanatic religious dogma isn't what most people deem as 'intellectually stimulating'.
26. Do something to change the world. Have a child. Raise a saint.
AGAIN, why not do this YOURSELF? Or adopt. There are plenty of children in the system that crave a home, a family.
Oh wait, no one wants those BROWN babies, or those retarded ones. We're trying to keep an image here!
27. Revel in the simplicity of a child's unconditional love and trust.
Until the first time it screams 'I HATE YOU'.
28. Parenting will soften your hard edges and sharpen your compassion and empathy.
Someone should have informed Andrea Yates about this aspect.
29. Motherhood is an insight into one's soul. It's better than analysis.
Better than a professionally trained psychotherapist?
MOM'S KNOW EVERYTHING.
30. Success is not defined only in terms of what one does for money. To succeed as a mother is beyond worldly success.
How YOU cured any pestilence yet? Hunger?
Call me once you do.
31. When your husband becomes the father of your children, a new man appears: fiercely loving but practical and still-logical, nurturing but fiercely strong and protective. You will fall in love with him all over again.
A fiercely beating but enraged and still abusive but fiercely cruel and terrible. You will regret having a child sired into a loveless, abusive relationship.
32. The child to whom you give life may be the one to fight the culture of death and the notion of a brave new world.
WHY AREN'T YOU ALREADY DOING THIS INSTEAD OF PROJECTING IT ONTO A CLUELESS CHILD.
33. "How can there be too many children? That is like saying there are too many flowers." -- Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
7 billion people. Enough said.
34. Children whittle away your time in ways that are ultimately beneficial: they have an uncanny knack for getting rid of the meaningless hobbies that used to consume you.
Soon enough you'll become a brainless, naive, insecure, and identity-less person once dropping EVERYTHING to become YOUR CHILD.
35. Watching a child grow into a caring, sensitive soul is a reward that cannot be measured in book sales.
Watching a child grow into a raging sociopath with histrionic tendencies is a reward that cannot be measure in jail time.
36. It's an awe-inspiring thing to have a child and the experience of feeling, "I didn't think I could ever love anyone that much."
I'm sure your spouse, friends, and other family members appreciate that sentiment.
37. Already have a child? Have another. Siblings are the best birthday presents, Christmas presents, Father's Day presents, Arbor Day presents ....
I'd be pissed if I received a sibling for my birthday.
Someone has surely forgotten about sibling rivalry. And the matter of fact that the siblings might hate once another with a burning passion.
Just because you share blood it does not guarantee that you will LOVE your family, or even LIKE them for that matter.
38. Baby toes. Need I say more?
............. you sniff baby toes? Or eat them? Easily break them since they're so frail and watch the child writhe in agony? I fail to see the picture here.
39. Okay, I'll say more. Watching your baby sleep: You didn't know that angels could be held in your arms.
I'm sure you can get some Risperdal for that.
40. Worried about money? What's worth more than a soul?
The soul might appreciate food, warmth, and shelter.
Humans are kinda peculiar about that sort of thing.
Thanks for your comments, Britani. I feel as if I know you now.
I understand the personal drive, passion, and desire to have children, if one wishes to have them, but please, most of the reasons here are naively optimistic, ignorant, and downright judgmental about whether people decide to have children or not.
A personal childfree decision to never have children is just as valid and well-put together as much as a personal, THOUGHT OUT decision whether to have children, adopt, or foster.
Thank you for your time.
Karen, you are one class act. Your response to these idiotic, heartless, ugly comments is beyond generous.The world is certainly a better place for you and your children being here.
"but please, most of the reasons here are naively optimistic, ignorant, and downright judgmental" --
---
Britani, I hope you'll read the reasons behind the post. I'm all for thoughtful discourse, and will happily engage in it, but let's start on a level playing field. This lighthearted post -- born of happiness -- was never meant to be a serious, definitive argument about having children.
And, seriously, I'd happily discuss Lord of the Flies (or Brave New World), or any other literature with you. :) I wish you all the happiness I've been fortunate enough to find, however and wherever you may find it.
--
Theresa, I don't know about class, but *I'm* sure glad my children are here. :) They sweeten everything in life, including the sting of negative comments. But, how interesting would a blog be with only cheerleaders around? :)
Karen,
now that I've finished reading your blog, I've had my full sugar intake for the day.
Have a lighthearted day!
Guess you didn't say they were going to be good reasons.
Karen,
Your reasons are beautiful! You are a very gracius woman to take the time to kindly repond to those who are outright rude to you.
This world is a better place with you in it! :O)
Lists like this are usually extremely shortsighted and full of selfishness. This 40 is not different. Many of the reasons stated are purely selfish of the parents. Take #38, baby toes. You have got to be kidding me that you believe a good reason to have a kid is to look at their toes! That is possibly one of the worst reasons to have a kid. Nothing in this list addresses anything about the kids, it is all about the parents. KIDS ARE NOT ABOUT FULFILLING THE PARENTS.
1. Desiring children with the man you love is as natural as breathing.
Not every desire is something that should be acted on.
2. The experience of delivering a new life to the world is singularly exhilarating. If you fear pain, there's this lovely thing called an epidural.
One fleeting moment for one of the parents involved is NOT a reason to have a kid.
3. Breastfeeding: it's not only economical, efficient, and good for the baby, but it releases hormones that relax and calm both mother and child, lulling both of you to sleep. Who wouldn't want a natural nap-inducer?
Have some chamomile tea.
4. The world doesn't revolve around me and my daily desires.
Having a kid does not mean someone will change their attitude, we all know plenty of self-centered adults.
5. Every human being has dignity and worth.
Filler?
6. A child is an unbreakable bond between husband and wife. Love breeds love. And more love. And more. There's nothing more desirable than the father of your children.
Fanciful, to say the least.
7. A couple becomes a family -- the whole becomes greater than its parts.
What post about having kids would be complete without a nice slap across the face to people who can't have kids.
8. Having a child is a cooperation with the sacred.
You presume everyone believes as you do.
9. Children are some of the most charming little people I know: full of wonder, curiosity and innate kindness. Properly nurtured, they become equally charming adults.
SOME kids are. Some kids are assholes. Because of the parents you say? Perhaps, but perhaps they should not have had kids in the first place.
10. You get to read all the favorite books of your childhood all over again.
Are these books off limits without kids? Filler imo.
11. Children naturally grasp the lesson that people are more important than things.
Again with the presumptions. SOME kids do, but not all, and it would not be a reason to have kids regardless.
12. Children teach us the freedom that comes with self-discipline and self-sacrifice.
If you need a kid to teach you self discipline you probably shouldn't have kids.
13. The biggest drudgery is facing no one but myself day after day.
Kids are not meant to be entertainment for bored parents.
14. I am not ideal ... why should I expect my children to be? Kids teach us the joy of unconditional love and acceptance.
Your statement is true however it is not something that could not be learned or experienced elsewhere, not a reason to have kids.
15. I will inevitably disappoint my children because I am not perfect. But, along the way, I'll be able to teach them that -- while nothing on this side of heaven is perfect -- the journey and the perfection that awaits us are worth every moment of trial on earth.
A bit fanciful if you ask me, but again not something that is solely experienced through children and not a reason to have kids.
16. To remain or become a self-centered, self-enclosed egotist: what horror!
Sigh... this is getting tiresome. Not having kids does not equal become self centered. Using kids as the means to stave off the parents shortcomings is not justifiable.
17. Taking time to care for the gifts I've been given ... yes, thank you.
Ok fine.
18. Motherhood is a vocation: fulfilling, rewarding, and full of unpredictable surprises.
As are many other vocations. As with other 'reasons' kids should not be used as a means to fulfill parents.
19. Families: they are a reflection of the Trinity.
I just threw up in my mouth a little.
20. Relive childhood and all of its innocent wonder and mirth.
Selfish of the parents.
21. To persist in saying "me first" is a sign of immaturity.
More presumptions that people without kids operate in this fashion.
22. A child will ignite the fond memories of your own childhood.
Same as #20 (filler?) and again is selfish of the parents.
23. While you cannot ensure that your child will be happy 100% of the time, the desire for her happiness is a good, admirable and unselfish thing.
Again, you do not need a child for this, and a child should not be used as the means of realizing this.
24. The enchantment of being with one's children outweighs any and all other difficulties.
Children should not be had as a means of escaping your other difficulties.
25. If you worry about sending them off to school, homeschooling is a delightful, intellectually stimulating option.
This is not a reason to have kids, it addresses the anxiety some parents have.
26. Do something to change the world. Have a child. Raise a saint.
Don't need kid to change the world.
27. Revel in the simplicity of a child's unconditional love and trust.
Fine and well but as a reason it is selfish.
28. Parenting will soften your hard edges and sharpen your compassion and empathy.
Perhaps but it is not the only means of doing this. Kids are not meant to be tools.
29. Motherhood is an insight into one's soul. It's better than analysis.
Again with the having kids so they can be a tool of the parents... THAT is selfish.
30. Success is not defined only in terms of what one does for money. To succeed as a mother is beyond worldly success.
More kids fulfilling parents shortcomings... you don't need a kid to realize this and if you're having a kid for this purpose it is again selfish.
31. When your husband becomes the father of your children, a new man appears: fiercely loving but practical and still-logical, nurturing but fiercely strong and protective. You will fall in love with him all over again.
Presumptions... and more having a kid for the purpose of them being a tool.
32. The child to whom you give life may be the one to fight the culture of death and the notion of a brave new world.
Or they could perpetuate it.
33. "How can there be too many children? That is like saying there are too many flowers." -- Blessed Teresa of Calcutta
Not a reason to have kids... you were running out of reasons huh?
34. Children whittle away your time in ways that are ultimately beneficial: they have an uncanny knack for getting rid of the meaningless hobbies that used to consume you.
I repeat... kids are not to be had to alleviate the boredom of adults.
35. Watching a child grow into a caring, sensitive soul is a reward that cannot be measured in book sales.
Repeat after me... kids should not be had to fulfill the wishes of the parents.
36. It's an awe-inspiring thing to have a child and the experience of feeling, "I didn't think I could ever love anyone that much."
Perhaps, but a selfish reason to have a kid don't you think?
37. Already have a child? Have another. Siblings are the best birthday presents, Christmas presents, Father's Day presents, Arbor Day presents ....
Awesome, tell your second child you had them to be a present for their older sibling to play with and see how that goes over.
38. Baby toes. Need I say more?
Yes you do need to say more, you haven't had one good actual reason that is beneficial to the kid yet, only the parents.
39. Okay, I'll say more. Watching your baby sleep: You didn't know that angels could be held in your arms.
Stop it already.
40. Worried about money? What's worth more than a soul?
Give me a break, kids require a lot of money, a real honest concern for many people. Sloughing it off is both shortsighted and elitist.
Hi, latest Anonymous,
I think I've already addressed most of what you said in above comments, including the fact that I do not seriously advocate reproduction purely for the intention of gazing on baby toes.
About being financially elitist in reason #40, we are a one-income family and my husband is a public school teacher. You can do the math. :-)
Thanks for stopping by.
Karen,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I realize that you are saying these things are joys that you have personally experienced and appreciate where they come from. I hope that some of your commenters will come to realize the same. :)
Be blessed!
I wish that these anonymous posters could hear their own voices, and see the advertising for their position which their posts provide. Among other things, I wonder why the expression of a view counter to their own provokes such violent response in people who I'm sure consider themselves to be open-minded.
I'm interested in and saddened by the fact that the last anonymous poster can't understand joy as anything other than selfish wish-fulfillment. To grow up knowing, innately, that you brought your parents joy is a tremendous gift. To know that your life is satisfying to someone else, that someone loved watching you grow, found you delicious and gorgeous and intellectually fulfilling -- who wouldn't want that? It's the easiest thing in the world to give -- not sacrifice-free, but as efforts go, it's not that hard if you're disposed to love in the first place. If you're not, well, have fun with that.
Karen is ennumerating gifts, from child to parent and from parent to child. None of these things are one way. And to ridicule these reasons is to ridicule the nature of love itself, which is a feast around a common table.
As for why a woman would choose the physical depredations of childbearing: because she knows what beauty really is, that's why. Do people really think they're not going to get old anyway? Do they really think the body doesn't change? Do they really think there's only one way to be beautiful and deserving of another person's love and admiration? At the end of the day it all returns to dust, ladies and gentlemen. Might as well use it for something other than a display model.
Karen, I appreciated this post when it first appeared, and I appreciate it all the more now. Thanks for your generosity and graciousness.
Mrs. T., what a beautiful comment, and thank *you* for your gracious words.
Mrs T, you may be wondering why those of us who choose to remain childless get angry "when faced with a differing opinion to ones own". The reason is that most of the time mothers are extremely smug, which I'm sorry Karen E, this also includes you.
There is this ridiculous societal prescription that life must follow this banal, linear path:
Step 1=meet the man of you're dreams
Step2=Get married
Step 3= spawn
Perhaps that woman's book is an attempt at parodying this, and quite frankly, we need to look outside the box, because our society has so far only headed us toward destroying the world that sustains us. Looking at it from this perspective, breeding even more humans in the hope that one of them will be some kind of saint that saves everything is completely counter productive.
Mothers are adept at at putting themselves in a smug little clique just because they pushed one out. Those of us who choose not to have children need to constantly fight against this mindless tide of bovine following.
The reason why us purposefully childless people get riled up, is because there exists this ridiculous idea that motherhood is an unselfish thing, and remaining childless by choice is "selfish". The real irony is that the desire to replicate you're own DNA is actually bloody selfish in itself. I find it completely laughable that every reason for having kids is actually a selfish one.
Before you get all patronizing again Karen E, I'd like to add that I am actually not "young" I am well beyond the 19 years of age that you keep referring to as being the time that you didn't want kids. I am 27, at an age where all of my friends are having children, and I still don't want them. I believe I can help the world far more without being encumbered by screaming infants and tantrum creating small humans, who lets face it, are...there's that word again: selfish.
I applaud my bra burning feminist predecessors, I love that I can have a career. My life partner of 7 years is more than enough of a man as he is without kids, and we have the most fantastic relationship, full of freedom and independence. The kind that my motherly friends chained to the stove and cleaning nappies will only ever have once their kids leave home, when they are too old to enjoy it.
So when I am faced with a dumbfounded look at my announcements to remain childless, and when I am asked the (selfish) question of "oh but then what are you going to do with you're life, whats your purpose?" I simply reply "to live".
Hi, Fiona,
I'm afraid this will sound patronizing to you, but I still didn't want children when I was 27, and, wow, I could have written this comment at that time in my life.
I hated being around mothers -- I felt they acted as if they were in a secret and superior club, so I may understand your position better than you think, though that probably sounds patronizing, too. I'm 49, so I practically am one of your bra-burning, feminist predecessors ... I never literally burned a bra, but eschewed them for years based on my feminist principles ....
I guess one of my points with this whole string of comments is to say that life can hold a lot of surprises and we sometimes become things we used to despise. That holds the potential to be horrible, but at other times, in some lives, it's a gift.
Karen, Thank you for giving someone that knows that children can be both wonderful and horrifying some things to think about. I always thought that I would have children when I got married. It seemed like something that I would want to do. I like children, most of the time. In fact, as a teacher I have devoted my career to spending time with them. However, I found that after I got married I came up with all kinds of excuses on why I didn't want to have children yet. All of them completely valid and important. First my husband needed to finish school, then I wanted to get a couple of years of teaching under my belt (I am not saying that a woman has to stay home once they have children, I am simply saying that I wanted some occupational experience before complicating my life with a child), then I wanted to finish my Master's degree, then I wanted to live closer to family, then we wanted to buy a house. Now that my husband and I have accomplished all those things, I am finding that its not the reasons not to have a child that were stopping me from doing so, but that I just wasn't sure that I wanted to have children anymore. Granted, a large portion of this has to do with spending 8 hours a day with adolscents. Becoming a parent is a huge, scary decision. I can come up with a lot of reasons not to. It is good to hear some of the reasons to have children. Especially when taken in context with the purpose for making the list. {Why anyone in their right mind would honestly think that you would have children simply to look a baby toes I have no idea.) I appreciate your list of the joys of being a mother. Raising children is a difficult job that many people struggle with. It is very easy to focus on the negatives in life, and there are plenty when dealing with other people. It is good to focus on the positives.
Thanks and God's blessings.
Also, when you orginally wrote this post did you have any idea that there would still be controversy and discussion almost three years later?
Elizabeth, thanks so much for this lovely comment.
It's funny that you asked if I had any idea there would still be controversy and discussion three years later. I just mentioned the irony of that to my husband this morning.
On the day I wrote this post, I remember thinking that I had nothing to blog about, then I read the link, which my husband had sent, about the 40 Reasons book, and I tossed off this post. So, you can see how much thought went into it, lol!
Thanks for stopping by!
Hi Karen,
I appreciate you're reply to my comment, I do find it interesting! Also, I agree with my fellow secondary school teacher Elizabeth, it is good that you actually have got a forum here for this discussion, to view either side.
There was a movie I watched recently, called "The Women", with Meg Ryan. In it one of the characters is a 40 something career woman, and she said the most awesome quote, something like: "Being a woman and saying that you don't want children is the last taboo at a dinner party." And it is true. I once had a drunk woman at my partner's work do shouting at me because I said I didn't want kids.
It is great Karen, that you understand both sides of the coin, but I really do wish that there could be more accepting of other peoples' choices. Yes, in a way, I am eschewing the idea of having kids by choosing not to have my own. However, I accept other people's decision to do so, after all, it is their lives! Many of those people, do however, see it as a personal affront to their choice, because I choose not to do what they chose.
Perhaps all mothers that read this thread can take this thought away; that not everybody has to do as you did, and that other people's decisions on how to live their lives are up to them, as long as it isn't hurting anybody else. After all, a couple having a child because society pressured them to, when they didn't want it, could only lead to disaster for all involved.
Fiona, I'm glad you stopped back, thank you. I think it's the sad, fallen condition of humans that we will often lash out at each other for differences, but at least one-on-one -- (as in comment boxes! :) -- we can try to discuss differences calmly, and try to really understand other people's choices.
I do understand your frustration. I think that mothers can too easily fall into judging other (childless) women as selfish, and I remember being viewed that way when I didn't want kids. Many women looked at me as if I were an alien species.
Mothering is certainly an extremely time-consuming thing, and we moms have all looked back on the pre-mother days and thought, "What on earth did I do with all my time back then?" :) But, hindsight is 20-20, and I find time to be like closet space. I think we fill what we have.
I have a friend who says, "Before I had children, I had loads of time, I just didn't know it. I should have written three novels and won the Nobel prize!"
BUT, even though mothering *does* take a lot of time and self-giving, it doesn't follow ipso-facto that anyone who is not a mother is selfish. Unfortunately, it's sometimes expressed that way by some people.
And, focusing on the negative of the time factor can be harmful to everyone -- I don't want my fantastic kids to think they're a time-suck on my life. They're not. I get tired just as everyone else does, but my goal is to serve them, in the best sense of that word, with love, and without counting the cost. They're worth that.
For me, the desire to have children began to grow in relation to my spiritual conversion, and about the time I was 30 (actually just after I was baptized at that age), I had decided I wanted to have a baby. My husband eventually came to agree, but that was a huge change for both of us, as we'd married with the agreement that we would not have children.
We first had miscarriages, and then we had our oldest daughter when I was 33, but we thought we'd stop at one. It wasn't until I was received into the Catholic Church, and wanted to follow the Church's teachings that we abandoned birth control and opened ourselves to the possibility of more children. There were more heartbreaks, more miscarriages, but there have also been two more amazing gifts, two more daughters.
So, ultimately I guess I'm saying that for *me* decisions about children were "spiritual" decisions, in a certain sense.
That is *not* to say that I am judging the spiritual condition of anyone else! :) I only mean it to be explanatory. I think one of the reasons that I can understand why you and Elizabeth, among others, feel as you do is that had I not converted to Catholicism, I might have remained childless, as I would have had a different understanding of and belief in the place of children in my life. Does that make sense?
We took a leap that I would NEVER have predicted we would take (atheist + agnostic marry, agree not to have children, and end up with three daughters, several others in heaven due to miscarriage, and now we're both Catholic ....) Never saw it coming .... :)
It's been the best adventure of my life and sometimes in sharing that exhilaration, it sounds like a judgment on others, but I'm equally exhilarated by the chance to simply discuss this calmly with others.
Thanks again for stopping by, and for coming back to talk.
Hi!
I'm not sure how I got here, I think I Googled the ornaments that go on a Jesse Tree?
My two-cents. (Well, okay, probably more than that.)
I understand that this list is item for item a response to the other one, but- it's just as bad. It's just as "all about me" and offensive to people whose experiences have given them a different point of view. More so, actually, since I assumed the other list was tongue-in-cheek, and you appear to be serious. Adding a disclaimer about what it's in reference to doesn't make it less insensitive.
People who present the childless as Selfish Centers of the Universe (vague reference to #4) come as across as self-righteous and simpleminded.
You're happy being a mom. I'm happy for you.
I'm not a mom, but not for any of the stupid reasons that the french woman suggested. Neither am I swayed by anything on your sweet, sappy list, because it isn't really true. (Children naturally grasp the lesson that people are more important than things? Seriously?)
If it's real for you, I'm happy for you. You are blessed.
It's insulting to hear that I need a child to learn self-discipline and self-sacrifice, and that without one I'm a "self-centered, self-enclosed egotist." If that's the case, why bother quoting "Blessed Teresa of Calcutta"? What could SHE possibly know about children! (since you seem to be unfamiliar with sarcasm- that was an example.)
Better example- the way I read the Bible, my life should reflect love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. JESUS is the model for that, and he never had a baby. (Unless you're into the whole Da Vinci Code thing...)
It's insulting to suggest that couples without children aren't real Families. (#7)
22. A child will ignite the fond memories of your own childhood.
IF you HAVE fond memories of your own childhood.
Memories of my own childhood are the #1 thing that convinces me that I'm doing the right thing by not having kids. I DO love children. So much that I don't want them to EVER have to go through what I did. Until I'm convinced that I can do a better job than my parents did, I'm going to spare them (potential offspring) from that. Since I'm going to be 40 soon, it prob'ly ain't gonna happen. and that's okay. Somehow, God still has a purpose for my life even if you can't imagine how it could possibly be worthwhile.
I've forgiven them (my parents. I'm not as bitter as I probably sound) perhaps they did the best they could. That realization, however, is NOT encouraging! that means I could do my very best for MY kids and still be just as clueless that my teenage daughter is suicidally depressed.
37. Already have a child? Have another.
My #2 reason for not having kids is that my dad is the youngest of 14 siblings. What I've witnessed of his family, well- it's not the utopia you describe.
Having a bigger family does not make anyone a better parent. With some people, there really is less love to go around. it can get spread pretty thin.
I'm just sayin' I've put a little more thought (and PRAYER) into this decision than -ooh! I don't want my boobs to get saggy!
I'm guessing this list was written as a morale boost for all the other moms out there, but keep in mind that it's there for EVERYONE to read. As a newcomer to your blog, this didn't lead me to believe that you have a lot of insight that's worth my time. (ain't gonna make you one of the many "meaningless hobbies" that consume me.)
Thanks for including my contrary point of view-
Amy
wow. nothing said here convinced me to have a kid.
This is the thing . . . you anonymouses and others who responded negatively took Mrs. Edmisten's list way out of context. Mrs. Edmisten didn't say children are the ONLY way to be unselfish, or to learn virtues like patience, gentleness, and kindness. She implied that they are just one of the ways to learn them. More often than not, children just strengthen these virtues.
The way you respond so viciously makes me think you want your view to be seen, and only your view. Mrs. Edmisten has been the picture of love and respect and patience to you, and what do you do? You spit and fume and rage. It's just my personal opinion, but I think people like these may not know the great Lord Jesus Christ, or are not mature in their faith yet. Mrs. Edmisten is just as entitled to her calm, well-written view as you are to your harsh, bitter ones. So please stop freaking out about this, okay? It only makes you look as immature as the children you are bashing.
Amy, I am so sorry about your negative childhood experiences. I hope you've been able to overcome them. Thanks for your comments.
Gina, no problem on not convincing you ... the list wasn't really meant to. :)
Lauren -- thank you for your very kind remarks.
40 reasons to have kids, yes. They are 40 reasons indeed. Are they GOOD reasons though? Hardly.
I don't see what's wrong with being selfish either. Humans always do things out of selfishness. Anything you have ever done for yourself is selfish.
For example, the desire to have and want children is completely selfish in itself. In fact name me one reason to have a child that ISN'T selfish. I mean c'mon.
If you want to have children fine go ahead. That's your right, just like it's my right NOT to have children. EVER. =)
1. Desiring children with the man you love is as natural as breathing.
--
No. It's not. I'm sorry, I do not have any maternal instinct, nor do I want children. Funny enough, it's something both my husband and I agree on. It's one of the reasons we love each other.
Also, a child of divorce would probably take issues with some of these. Like #6 and 7. Love between two people does not always survive having a child, and sometimes a family is complete at two.
The fact is, I do not have children, I have never wanted to have them. It does not make me less of a woman for this. I can read my favorite childhood book, without having children. I can go for a walk in the woods - on my schedule - and be awed by nature. My husband and I can volunteer and leave the world a better place.
Having children isn't the end all be all of the world. I have just as much worth as you do, even though I don't have children.
"I have just as much worth as you do, even though I don't have children."
Of course you do. I would never say otherwise. This list was a specific response to a specific list written by a specific woman. That's all. :)
Funny enough, my husband and I also agreed on not having children when we married. We were adamant, so I understand that side of the coin as well.
I wish you peace and all good.
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